Author Topic: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!  (Read 3581 times)

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gulca

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2014, 06:46:23 PM »
@enochvey Interesting concept if I read it correctly.

So in a well oiled system, we need to provide the mechanism to cause an effect (eg bash and lag) to a target, and a mechanism to cure the effect (eg remove lag).

What Arctic has now is just "causing an effect". You can resist/negate that effect (with no bash or hard bash) but you can't remove it.

Hoss presented a system that will increase the "resistance" of being bashed (and negate it if idiots kept on bashing) but still there is no removing the lag involved. This is a major improvement because limited hard-bash/nobash items are not involved.

Now if we have skills/spells that counter (ie remove) all types of control effects, then maybe fighting would last longer and players can do more (other than spamming their favorite spells/skills).

In Hoss example, when a cleric is bashed on entry, a groupie un-lag the cleric on the next round. Cleric stands up to heal/cure with the "resist-bash" flag still on for the next round. Or a smart cleric would "sit" and wait for idiots to try to over-bash and get "no-bash" flag and stands up the next round to heal.


corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2014, 07:13:23 PM »
Hoss: just fyi, if the thought hadn't crossed your mind yet...

You're going to have to make some sort of development decision when it comes to stacking debuff types between mobs and players.

What I mean by that is...

Let's say you have two invisible (to players) "has_been_knocked_down" flag stacks on a player. Is the current plan to differentiate stack types whether they come from a mob or a player?

I could (and will, if it goes in that way - and I won't be the only one) stack debilitate/knockdown debuffs on a player when there's no cause for alarm to have happen during a fight rather than when the mob feels like knocking down or disorienting players in my group (much more likely to happen at a bad time when I'm not deciding). This can really only be looked at as completely exploiting the game mechanics.

On the flip side, if the flags on a player are split between mobs and players, "has_been_knocked_down_by_player" and "has_been_knocked_down_by_npc" for instance, the stacks would be independent. This could also cause problems in that it might be a pain in the ass to code for charmies, would cause much easier player kills when catching people fighting mobs in a zone(which technically should be easier anyway).

I feel like I worded all of that poorly but it SHOULD be enough to get my thought across?

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2014, 08:36:59 PM »
@Corey

It has crossed our minds, and while you could bash your cleric mid fight, you wouldn't be adding any immunity protection due to collusion. Also since most control affects will be short duration (rounds not tics), bashing your cleric out of combat to build up their immunity would be pretty short lived and not very effective.

Hoodoo

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2014, 09:26:43 PM »
To those who believe that bashers have no other raison d'etre than the ability to spam bash on stand, I say... you haven't been paying attention for the last 5 wipes, insofar as the changes in the class. 

A basher who doesn't trail kick low after a bash *currently*, or who doesn't take the chance to toss in a kick low rather than a low % sitting bash currently, is ignoring the chance to (at legend), both do oblit level damage and inflict a few *nasty* debil effects. 

A basher who ignores legend target's lack of lag, ability to control a fight in a way a barbarian or paladin simply cannot do, and also take advantage of some free +dam is really limiting his use of the classes' best options.

Bash is far from the end-all, be-all of warrior abilities.  While today's warrior does work primarily off bash unless he tanks (steelskin + legend parry + fortress + 28 dex = who the *bapt* needs a barb?), spambash warriors are the least useful of the possible playstyles right now.  This system of control effects is the best chance I've seen for today's warrior players to update their playstyle past the tactics of the late '90s.

Jason

gnua

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2014, 11:16:24 PM »
@Hoss, are you saying that if I get bashed, I will be able to stand/cast/quaff/recite right away without any lag? If not, then doesnt that mean that bash/knockdown has a short 'debilitate' that prevents me from doing stuff right away? I feel like I'm completely misunderstanding you.

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2014, 08:10:43 AM »
@Gnua I don't see where I ever said anything like that, so no I am not saying if you get bashed you will be able to stand/cast/quaff/recite right away without any lag. A bash is not a paralysis or hold person spell, they are not the same, a bash does not add a debilitate affect. I thought I was clear on that in my earlier post that the control affects do not cross over.

reed23

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2014, 03:10:34 PM »
Will all knockdown flags stack equally?  I.E.  Chance for 2nd bash to land = 20% reduction.  Chance for 2nd avenge leg to land = 20% reduction.  All knockdowns stack the same?

gnua

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2014, 03:16:19 PM »
Any spell or skill that blocks the target from performing action will use the debilitate method, regardless of what it actually does to the victim.

If knockdown/bash has no debilitate affect, and bash skill can still lag a target, then it would seem that knockdown lag would be a way to prevent escape actions without a debilitate...

enochvey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2014, 04:03:28 PM »
@enochvey Interesting concept if I read it correctly.

So in a well oiled system, we need to provide the mechanism to cause an effect (eg bash and lag) to a target, and a mechanism to cure the effect (eg remove lag).

What Arctic has now is just "causing an effect". You can resist/negate that effect (with no bash or hard bash) but you can't remove it.

For the most part yes, but the details would be more difficult in a round-based combat system vs what they have in GW2.

That having been said, I think it could work very well with the four types of CC presented by hoss to have the ability to apply an effect, to negate/respond to that effect before the full duration has passed and even to protect beforehand from the application of an ability for a short time.

Some pretend examples:

Stability (Shamelessly stolen from gw2): If used before being on the receiving end of a knockdown, either prevents the application of ONE knockdown for up to 2-3 rounds, or enables the one being knocked down to get back up after redcuded (possibility eliminated) lag from the knockdown.

This would not be a spammable ability, but rather one that had a recharge timer of something like 4-6 combat rounds. Great for breaking your cleric out of a bash to get off a critical heal in pk, but not a "fire and forget" immunity.

Iron focus : Similar ability/mechanics as stability, only related specificly to disorient/haze type effects.

ETC.:

There are a number of ways this could be implimented, such as givng each class 1 breaker ability for one CC type, or even giving them the ability to break any of the specific CC types once on a 4-6 round timer.

There is also the possibility of adding a "universal CC breaker/prevented cc" on an even longer timer, but would depend entirely on the balance of the previously mentioned system. 

Jarrad

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2014, 05:53:26 PM »
Re Hoss, I noticed that in all three categories you included both spells and skills. I would love to see casters gaining access to knock downs, eg force bolt, granite hand similar type spells having an extra effect of bash being added, with the skill increasing with caster level but being capped around below average (basically what red robes get, but open the option of 1 or 2 spells at least per robe, and probably Druids also).

On the other side, I would love to see tank classes gaining some more options. Dks, scouts and paladins all have a few options for disorients between riposte, thrust and avenge. I would love to see melee based classes getting something like Bear Hug (sacrifice attacks for short term hold person) , and perhaps gaining something like nerve strike (primary disarming and preventing hitting and offhand disarming and preventing hitting or forcing to drop/be unable to use shield and held item), basically open up more options to all classes...

I am hoping you have an overhaul of skill and spell based disorients and debilitates to the effect that a thrust or riposte silence will work exactly like the spell (how this works with anti magic shell I leave up to you) in terms of having a spell based counter. Please allow spells like cure malevolence, heal, dispel magic, free action etc to counter skill based disorients/debilitates as well as spell based disorients/debilitates.

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2014, 05:59:44 PM »
@Enochvey I enjoyed GW2 (for a short time) and did borrow some of the philosophy and methodology from that game and other games along the way. There will be ways that a victim and/or the victim's party to remove a control affect. I can't go into a lot of detail here because again that will be discovered in class design discussions, but the goal is to not have a diminishing return system but more of a tactical/situational system.

@reed23 Yes, they will roughly be equivalent. We do not want to see one knockdown become more effective than another knockdown, but there are some differences so they are not all exactly the same.

@Gnua I give up on the semantics discussion with you. Bash does not add paralysis today, and it won't do anything like that in the future. Knockdowns use other methods i.e. bash lag for the 'control' aspect. If you are bashed, you won't be able to automatically stand up and quaff a potion as you are affected by the control aspect of being bashed. I thought this was pretty clear so I apologize if you have misunderstood this.

@Jarrad Keep an eye out for class design discussions

haphazard

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2014, 07:01:08 PM »
I don't have anything important to add to the conversation besides tipping my hat to Hoss and Aristox for promptly addressing and answering individual questions to the best of their ability at this point. I look forward to NewArcticGame and the proposed changes thus far are intriguing. I cannot wait to see them in action someday. Thanks to you, and all other immortals, for your hard work and dedication while gaining virtually nothing in return. I love this game.

enochvey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »
There will be ways that a victim and/or the victim's party to remove a control affect. I can't go into a lot of detail here because again that will be discovered in class design discussions, but the goal is to not have a diminishing return system but more of a tactical/situational system.

Woot

blackmagus

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2014, 08:06:09 PM »
Really curious if that means that gear which causes blindness will be a must have for area of effect casters and rotating healers? Or will this new system not take into effect blind/silence/etc effects coming from gear or ranks?

Aristox

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2014, 09:54:38 PM »
Only effects caused by a spell are counted.  Just being blinded will not make you immune to things, you will have to be blinded by a spell.   There are specs out there that will add blind/silence/etc flags which will avoid this system as well.  Spells and skills are the only way the immunity is applied.