Author Topic: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!  (Read 3204 times)

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Hoss

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Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« on: March 21, 2014, 08:42:45 PM »
Control affects are a new and major system in our upcoming development project. We all know how painful it is to be
blind for 10 minutes, or bashed into oblivion so we have come up with a new system to group affects together and allow
some protection from overuse. I have purposely removed any detailed numbers from this discussion so we could discuss how
it works. We want control affects to be useful without becoming overpowered and too dominant (i.e. bash).


Knockdown
These include any skill, spell or ability that well...knocks you down and changes your current position. When a
knockdown occurs a counter is placed on the victim for a short duration.  The counter stacks and begin reducing the
chance the next knockdown will land, so the more knockdown affects you have the less likely a new knockdown will occur.
The counter will continue to stack until the victim becomes immune to any new knockdown skill or spell. On the flip
side, once the counter expires it becomes easier to land a knockdown.

Disorient
These include skills or spells that block some but not all actions (e.g. Blind, Silence, Confusion etc.). Disorients
will land much more frequently than they currently do, making them a lot more effective as a control affect. The
disorient affects will be short duration, but very powerful. Once a disorient is applied to the victim, the victim is
immune to all disorient affects. This immunity lasts until either the duration wears off, or is removed by another spell
or skill.

Debilitate
These include skills or spells that block all actions (e.g. Stun, Paralysis, Hold Person etc.). Debilitating affects
have varying ratings and durations. The rating defines the chance the debilitate will break the next time damage is
applied and acts as a stacking counter to determine if new debilitation affects can be applied to the victim. The rating
is only removed when the duration of the affect expires, meaning even if the debilitate is removed via damage taken, the
rating is still somewhat protecting the victim from the next debilitation attempt.

corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2014, 10:26:23 PM »
Control affects are a new and major system in our upcoming development project. We all know how painful it is to be
blind for 10 minutes, or bashed into oblivion so we have come up with a new system to group affects together and allow
some protection from overuse. I have purposely removed any detailed numbers from this discussion so we could discuss how
it works. We want control affects to be useful without becoming overpowered and too dominant (i.e. bash).


Knockdown
These include any skill, spell or ability that well...knocks you down and changes your current position. When a
knockdown occurs a counter is placed on the victim for a short duration.  The counter stacks and begin reducing the
chance the next knockdown will land, so the more knockdown affects you have the less likely a new knockdown will occur.
The counter will continue to stack until the victim becomes immune to any new knockdown skill or spell. On the flip
side, once the counter expires it becomes easier to land a knockdown.

Disorient
These include skills or spells that block some but not all actions (e.g. Blind, Silence, Confusion etc.). Disorients
will land much more frequently than they currently do, making them a lot more effective as a control affect. The
disorient affects will be short duration, but very powerful. Once a disorient is applied to the victim, the victim is
immune to all disorient affects. This immunity lasts until either the duration wears off, or is removed by another spell
or skill.

Debilitate
These include skills or spells that block all actions (e.g. Stun, Paralysis, Hold Person etc.). Debilitating affects
have varying ratings and durations. The rating defines the chance the debilitate will break the next time damage is
applied and acts as a stacking counter to determine if new debilitation affects can be applied to the victim. The rating
is only removed when the duration of the affect expires, meaning even if the debilitate is removed via damage taken, the
rating is still somewhat protecting the victim from the next debilitation attempt.

Are debilitate effects going to add, for instance, auto-knockdown landings like it works in today's game? Will sitting/resting actually exist(if so will damage change like today's game?) in the future of Arctic?

Are debilitates going to be lumped into a giant "all the spells will do this" or are they going to have some variation? (like Paralysis today sits a target)

snax

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 12:48:28 AM »
If I wear an autosilence, which would probably make me more popular does that mean i'm automatically immune blind?

food for thought.

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 10:07:56 AM »
@Corey debilitates will not add a knockdown affect if they change your position. Any spell or skill that blocks the target from performing action will use the debilitate method, regardless of what it actually does to the victim.

@Snax No, you would become immune to silence. Immune_Silence would not make you immune to Blind, it would just make any silence disorient fail.

corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 11:42:02 AM »
@Corey debilitates will not add a knockdown affect if they change your position. Any spell or skill that blocks the target from performing action will use the debilitate method, regardless of what it actually does to the victim.

@Snax No, you would become immune to silence. Immune_Silence would not make you immune to Blind, it would just make any silence disorient fail.

Sorry I think I worded my question badly... Will debilitate automatically guarantee knockdown effects landing in the future?

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 01:07:50 PM »
If you are held (debilitated) and then a player tries to bash you, the bash will still have to check against the knockdown cap. It would not bypass this check just because you cannot move.

corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 01:46:59 PM »
If you are held (debilitated) and then a player tries to bash you, the bash will still have to check against the knockdown cap. It would not bypass this check just because you cannot move.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Wait, edit*

Does this mean there will be more skill-based decisions made mid-fight? Who has how many debilitate vs bash flags on them at any current time and the rates at which they decay?

X has been held for 3 rounds, hold wears in 1 round, it's finally time to use a knockdown flag to disable him.
Conversely: x has now been bashed twice and debilitate's immunity has worn off, but his anti_knockdown flag is now stacked high -> it is time to attempt a debilitate to disable him.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 01:49:18 PM by corey »

corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 07:19:05 AM »
Slept on it and had one more question...will mobs be flagged the same as players? Will they become unbashable / undisorientable after a certain point? Is AMS being removed from mobs to allow rotations of disable types to kill healing mobs?

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 11:59:48 AM »
@Corey: Yes, we want players to make choices instead of just using 1 method for control. Bashing something every time it is up will not be as effective as it is today. To your second post; The system is for both players and mobs. There are a lot of fights that will be changed and flagged to better fit into this system and we know we may not get it perfectly right the first time around. To give more context to the system, classes will have more than 1 control affect, but it will require a well tuned group to coordinate each for perfect execution.

corey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 12:41:30 PM »
@Corey: Yes, we want players to make choices instead of just using 1 method for control. Bashing something every time it is up will not be as effective as it is today. To your second post; The system is for both players and mobs. There are a lot of fights that will be changed and flagged to better fit into this system and we know we may not get it perfectly right the first time around. To give more context to the system, classes will have more than 1 control affect, but it will require a well tuned group to coordinate each for perfect execution.

I'm going to prod with oneeeeeeeee more question. Hopefully the questions overall are more helpful to you guys than annoying, but...

You mention classes having more than one control effect. Is this going to be sort of like a WoW scenario where out of, let's say the 4 main tank classes (warrior, barbarian, dk, paladin), each one of them gets two different sets to remain different from each other yet similar?

For instance..Warrior / Barb will both have knockdowns, but for their secondaries, one will be a disorient and one will be a debilitate, whereas dk/paladin would have something similar in the sense that their "main" skill might be a disorient but their secondary a knockdown or debilitate(one each to spread it out again). Is this sort of where you're headed? Will certain knockdowns be less effective in both length and/or success rate from other classes?

Sorry if I'm reading too much into this already, quite curious.

gnua

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 08:16:50 PM »
Will all knockdowns also be a deblitate (like current bash), or are we introducing the notion of a knockdown where one cannot stand but can still do other things (making it a bit more like a disorient), or are some knockdowns just going to let one stand up immediately?

gulca

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2014, 01:48:39 PM »
Quote
Bashing something every time it is up will not be as effective as it is today.

So, what do you expect a basher to do? Punch/bash once and smile pretty? I think bashers will continue to be bashing even if the chance drops by 50%.

Hoss

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2014, 01:54:13 PM »
@Gnua
  • Knockdowns are knockdowns, debilitates are debilitates and disorients are disorients. None of which are blended, we have no current plan to allow for a skill/spell to inflict more than 1 of these control affects. Your bash won't add a knockdown and a debilitate to the victim.
  • You can bash to your hearts content, but at some point the victim will become no_bash. At that point I expect you to either fail at life, or use another ability

@Corey
  • We are introducing a rune power system to dark knights, a holy power system to paladins and a rage system to warriors for tanking. Druids will be able to tank, but only while in Bear form. Clerics will have 2 different healing trees, one focused around absorbing damage with shields and one focused are big burst heals. I say all this in jest, because we are nothing like WOW, but I understand that it is used as a benchmark by a lot of folks. We will discuss control abilities when we get into class design.

SArT

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2014, 02:22:33 PM »
Bear tank ftw.

enochvey

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Re: Control Affects -- Next Wipe -- Don't stun me bro!
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2014, 03:46:46 PM »
Let me start off by saying that it's about time this stuff got looked at... Thank you!!

The amount of time I spend bashed/diso'd/hazed/confused/stuned etc. as a main tank is beyond absurd. Ranks/gear for saves/immunities only go so far, and in most major fights I tank, I end up having zero control over my character for a large portion of that fight.

This is especially bad for my group and irritating to me when it happens so often at the beginning of a fight. It is critical at that point in time to be able to control my character and use class defining skills such as ghostdance in order to survive what can sometimes be dmg that can almost 1 round me even with 850ish hp, steelskin rank and limit dam gear.

The same can be said about breech, given how powerful it is when used in combination with name-specific aliased rescues, especially on fights where mobs do a lot of re-targetting. I could rant about not being able to use other skills etc when they are most needed.. but I think the point has been made... I don't play arctic, and I don't play a tank to sit passively at my screen and watch my group get eaten alive.

That having been said let me give an example of what I do play games like this for...

I played guild wars 2, in the top tier of the three-way server battles for the better part of a year, as part of one of the most known/feared guilds playing the game at that time, Tempest Wolves. Our class composition for our groups, and a large part of our entire strategy revolved around the co-ordinated used of both crowd control and crowd control breakers.

You can see an example of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY_04OGoNz8

One of the things guild wars 2 got right was it didn't follow the example of WoW and a number of other games in the way it implemented crowd control. It was't lop sided, favoring rogues, mages and warlocks for example. It also didn't use diminishing returns as a major mechanic in limiting the application of crowd control, but only as a minor mechanic in limiting it's duration.

Instead it followed a move:counter move philosphy that while not perfect, did amazingly well in comparison  to other games I've seen. It did a wonderful job of empowering players to actually use their characters during most of, if not the entirety of the fights they encountered. 

Having seen such a good example of what can be done with a crowd control/break/duration system, I really have to recommend that something similar is done here. Please do not use diminishing returns as the major mechanic in limiting the application of crowd/person  control. It is nothing more than the opposite, but equal side of the "Im have to sit here because I can't use my character" rant I started this post with.