Author Topic: Group Size  (Read 8097 times)

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Nasredin

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 06:13:37 AM »
I'm strongly against ANY group size limits (as well as "1 zoning group per zone" limit or any other limitations like that).

Look,

I'm a semi-regular player playing less and less every year. Approximately half of our player-base are like me. The other half are hardcore 24/7 players.

Now, when I join a zoning group, there is usually a core of 3-5 super-elite super-legendary hardcore players in shiny armor. Usually, the leader is one of those hardcore players. Usually, they could do whatever zones they had in mind on their own, but they accept me and other auxiliary chars to run along and get some xp, money, skills and secondary loads. They get little to no benefit from our assistance, the weak chars don't make the group noticeably faster or safer. In fact, taking "neutrals" (including the members of the minor clans) to an elite group is a pure act of charity.

I can't count the number of times last wipe when a friend told me: we would gladly accept you, but we already have a 10-person group. Too bad! Yet another day of soloing ahead.

Certainly, I can form and lead myself, but I'm not very great at it and it takes time. By the time I get enough ppl, I usually have just enough time for 1 zone, maybe 2. And once again, first I sit for an hour trying to get some ppl and then I get 5 tells in 5 minutes and I have to reject some of them because my group is already over-limit.


Now, if there are penalties for having a large group (let alone a hard group limit), the "real" groups will simply stop accepting neutrals at all.

Thus, reducing the group limit to 5 (or whatever; I dislike 10 almost just as much as 5) makes the game even more elitish and less friendly to a newbie or an occasional player.


One other important thing is that the _number_ of players in a group has nothing to do with the challenge of doing a zone. Not everybody is level30 and not everyone is legend and not every legend is rank 30. Trying to do Toede with a group of 15 level5 chars may be extremely fun and very challenging. For a lev30 char, there is neither challenge nor fun here, whatever is the group limit. Run in, kill the mob, loot it, go ahead.

And yes, I like zoning maza-style (maybe not all the time, but certainly on occasions). And for a group of occasional players who zone for fun the numbers make sense - what a major clan can do on 5, a minor clan can try on 15 (and still fail, but at least get some fun in the process). Even trying on 10 isn't worth the effort - the group dies way too fast.

However, once the group limit and other penalties are in place, we no longer have the choice - either zone like a professional or die immediately.


Now, as to balancing issues, there are certainly better ways to deal with it. One of the most obvious things is to add area damage (you need more heals to keep 20 chars alive rather than 10).

Another solution which is fairly simple to implement is dynamic mob loads (the more ppl are in the group and the higher level/rank are they, the more guards summon the king).

Certainly, the creative creators can come up with a lot more ideas.


Conclusion:

We don't need no stinking group limits. If the players start steam-rolling some end-game zone way too easily, let the creator take care of the setup of that particular zone.



btown

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 06:47:19 AM »
I love the 5man group size idea.  would bring a lot more competition back. 

Shannow

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 07:26:23 AM »
I see what Naserdin is saying as I am a player like him. Not an elite one. I don't lead the big zones so unless I'm a healer or tank I'm basically just along for the ride (christ I used to fall asleep on some large zones and no one would notice..:D)

However I disagree with his conclusions, I think the limit will make it better for casual players.

First off, 10 mans...are SO F'ING BORING. Gawd it sucks. The tank, the healer and the leader are the only ones who are doing anything. Its so spammy you stop paying attention. It sucks.

I love 2-3 man groups. If more of the mud is doable by 5 mans, then more of it will be doable by 2-3 mans.

Smaller groups = more groups. More leaders = more zoning. More activity = more fun.

I'm down for this change. MAKE IT HARDCODED.

Healers are gonna be in demand.

btown

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 07:30:18 AM »
YA WHAT HE SAID  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dyl

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 08:49:10 AM »
The only change I would consider to group sizes is to increase/scale damage to members of the group based on size after a certain number.  By putting hard caps on groups someone will be excluded.  Just like when groups went down to 10, plenty of people were logging off or doing timesink stuff because there was no room.  Just because #6 or #7 doesn't mind the penalty doesn't mean the entire group already formed is willing to take the group penalty.  Sometimes, you just want to log and bullshit except instead of hanging out in room 2, you are in a group in a shitty zone you know you are overpowered for.  It also seems like the idea would push towards more people being forced to play multiple characters/roles.  We have a shaman healer druid on, but they are all in the 5 man so we just sit here the additional barbarian and thief with no cures.  There shouldn't be a reason a player logs on and has to/wants to log off because they aren't having fun.

I like the idea of 'legendary zones' that are incredibly hard and may have group limit restrictions in place to enter.  Taking someones fun out of a pointless/useless but social run through theiwar or whatever makes no sense.  Pick a few (perhaps those that lyam suggested) and significantly increase difficulty... make these epic zones a creator focus?  Dynamic load number of mobs/hps/damage of mobs based on the group size that first entered the zone on that particular reset?  Have some zones with kws at zone entrance that allow the group if they want to run a regular or epic run of the current area?  (push green loads standard zone, push red loads epic version)....  Have more reboots, and have zones randomly made epic/one run for the reboot... would force a rush towards the harder areas for bonuses rather than inflict penalties on the little guys?

Hoss

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 09:34:18 AM »
One quick note that might be helpful for your feedback.

Legendary is going to be a topic of heavy discussion, we are not sold that we like how it works today and it creates a large gap in creation of zones. I am not saying it will be removed, I am saying it is up in the air and is difficult to balance the game around so it WILL change.

Another item to note is that while I am seeing folks say people will be excluded, we are actually hoping that is the opposite and that when a 5 man group fills up, a new group would be created. I know folks are passionate about their views, so please keep posting them this is good stuff.

eli

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 10:04:58 AM »
There may not be enough leaders with good zone knowledge to make this happen.

Dyl

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 10:22:21 AM »
"..5 man group fills up, a new group would be created. "

Which requires a leader, and four more assholes looking for a group who hopefully didn't get bored while sitting around waiting for cures because the only one anyone knows is busy 5manning.  Wishful thinking, but I doubt it.

reed23

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 10:47:00 AM »
I would be totally fine with the change to 5 man, but I think you are going down a path where people will be excluded from groups and the mud will shrink even faster than it is now.

Zozen

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 11:09:52 AM »
If you change group size:

1) Hard code size
2) A lot of zones need to be edited
3) Take away the huge disparity between legend and non-legend. It shouldn't be a game breaker (as it is now,) just a nice little boost.
4) I realize that you're working on class adjustments but you'll have to edit a lot of the "secondary" classes. Would a group take a shaman, druid, thief, or mage? If you're talking 5 man group: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps...as the classes stand now I'd probably use a war/pal/dk (or some combo of those 3) for those dps slots.. if it was 6 I'd add a druid or shaman.  As was said: 1 disable of cleric and the group can fall apart pretty fast, hence you'd want backup tanks that have durability.

Aristox

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 11:24:49 AM »
Please keep in mind we haven't started talking class design yet, beyond a few basic principles:

There will be 3 or 4 classes that can main heal a zone.
There will be 3 to 5 classes that can tank a zone.

We want to make the class you play fill multiple roles so you don't need to wait for a cleric or a barb to show up.  This needs to be done such that a tank can't be hardest to kill and top damage at the same time, but we don't necessarily want them to have to carry 2 sets of gear as well.  So there are some design decision in our future, but this group size discussion needs to take class changes into account.

Zozen

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 11:44:59 AM »
So it's difficult for us to really say what group size would be optimal without knowing how the classes/ranks will affect things. If we're talking purely from a playerbase # perspective then yes, for the most part it's rare that you'll see 10 man groups except right after a pwipe and the month or two that follows. Maybe 1 clan currently can field a 10 man group for more than 2-3 hours in a day. The rest of us are around 4-8 during our logon periods.

The tanking part I can understand--it's fairly easy to make it so dk/pal/war/barb can tank right now, but the healing part? I'm not sure how to make it so a shaman/druid can heal without making them way too strong. It's true that currently you can do most zones with regen/healing cloud but in the end you need heal and adding that spell to their repertoire would probably then make clerics obsolete.

shiboleth

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 11:53:16 AM »
how would these changes affect a solo person running through zones?

would it cause more % for loads, would it make currently soloable zones non-solo or just harder?

Doug

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2014, 12:26:34 PM »
This would encourage a lot more people to try leading, which is way better for the game.  If figuring out the keywords is such a big hindrance then post some zone info in the forums....make it common knowledge to lead a handful of high zones like sanction/dko/storms, ect so all these would be leaders have some lube to start with.

Tour

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Re: Group Size
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2014, 12:50:59 PM »
5 man groups and raise the amount of groups in a zone to 2.

that would give the game a new edge.