Author Topic: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe  (Read 4047 times)

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Jorake

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2014, 01:02:43 PM »
I understand the concept behind giving all characters a chance to dodge/parry/shield block. Why not give them all punch/kick/bash too? Every race has feet/hands. So they can punch/kick. Every char with a shield can slam it into someone and knock them down. Also, since there are alot of daggers/short blades. Maybe we can give backstab to all classes? I know in D&D, even if your class doesnt have that skill you can still roll for a chance of it landing!....

I personally feel like you are diving a bit to deep into all this.... Bringing out some new changes? Sure that sounds awesome. But now mage's can parry too? Can we bring back assassins? I wanna bash, backstab people.

Jorake

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2014, 01:04:05 PM »
***NEW META***

Globed/SS White Robe mages, with 600hp parry/shield blocking as tanks! HUURAH

Hoss

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2014, 01:22:20 PM »
Quote
I understand the concept behind giving all characters a chance to dodge/parry/shield block. Why not give them all punch/kick/bash too? Every race has feet/hands. So they can punch/kick. Every char with a shield can slam it into someone and knock them down. Also, since there are alot of daggers/short blades. Maybe we can give backstab to all classes? I know in D&D, even if your class doesnt have that skill you can still roll for a chance of it landing!....

I personally feel like you are diving a bit to deep into all this.... Bringing out some new changes? Sure that sounds awesome. But now mage's can parry too? Can we bring back assassins? I wanna bash, backstab people.

The base %chance to parry, dodge, shield block is set on the guild. For example Warriors might have a 20% base chance to shield block where a mage might have a 1% base. A Warrior might have a shield block skill to raise the chance higher whereas a mage likely will not. These numbers are of course just for example.

Jorake

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2014, 02:17:04 PM »
That explained quite a bit. And it makes more sense. I apologize.. I didn't think about it like that from the start:) It is sort of odd to know a game I've been playing since I was 15yrs old(27 now) is going to change so much.

Thymorical

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 12:41:57 PM »
not really sure why im posting being i have quit for good because hoss deleted me and some immortal but  I think it be kinda nice to see goblin warrior with fence skill and a shield owning it up as a tank.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 12:52:51 PM by Thymorical »

jingo

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2014, 01:10:06 PM »
Missing a lot sounds like a frustrating experience for new players - is there anything to mitigate that, or is the base chance relatively high (e.g. 30-50%) so it won't be a frustrating experience for them?

Also, I'm not sure if you're considering this, but when the MUD I worked on redid their thac0 system we re-used the new system for our chance-to-land for skills.  The only difference was that different skills had different target chances to land.  So melee attacks had a targeted chance to land of 50%, but bash had something in the area of 25%. +5 hitroll bumped your melee chance to 51%, but bash only to 25.5%.

This had the happy side effect (happy, for us) to make +hitroll useful since it helped things like backstab and bash land.  On arctic that might be a bit overpowered though.  Our primary goal was to make +1 hitroll as useful as +1 damage though.

gulca

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2014, 01:51:22 PM »
Missing a lot sounds like a frustrating experience for new players - is there anything to mitigate that, or is the base chance relatively high (e.g. 30-50%) so it won't be a frustrating experience for them?

I always like the 100X misses on worms and spiders in the sewers while leveling with training gears.

I think the real way to do hits and misses on a moving target is to use the "relative" skill + level between the hitter and the target. So 2 lvl ones fighting each other would have the same hit-rate like 2 lvl 30s fighting each other. 50% chance would be a good number.

Now when a lvl 1 tries to hit a lvl 30s, you will see the lvl 1 misses a lot and the lvl 30 hitting at 98%.

In a perfect system, a lvl 1 char would take the same amount of time killing lvl 1 worms and when at lvl 5, he would take the same amount of time killing a lvl 5 goblin.

For example, not taking armor, dex into account:
Hit chance = 50% (base) + (level_player - level_target) / 100 + (weapon_player - weapon_target) / 100

Assuming level adds or minus max of 29% and weapons another 20%, you will get possibility of close to 99%.

Here are some numbers in different scenarios (max skill at 20)
1. player: lvl 1, weapon skill at 1
    target: lvl 5, weapon skill at 3
chance to hit for player: 0.5 - 0.04 - 0.02 = 0.46 (46%)
chance to hit for target: 0.5 + 0.04 + 0.02 = 0.56 (56%)

2. player: lvl 30, weapon skill at 20
    target: lvl 5, weapon skill at 3
chance to hit for player: 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.17 = 0.92 (92%)
chance to hit for target: 0.5 - 0.25 - 0.17 = 0.08 (8%)

So first scenario, you will see a lot of hits between both fighters and 2nd scenario, the lower level will almost always miss.

Gahris

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2014, 02:47:47 PM »
A potential pitfall of dex affecting dodge/parry is that what if dex is also the damage stat for the class. For example if say you have a warrior who's damage stat is str, or a mage with int  a cleric with wis, and a thief with dex.   I would see the thief having a distinct advantage, unless ofcourse the damage stat of the other classes and similar additional affects.

I think a solution would be to have the stats  do the same thing for all classes, and just have the classes have different stat needs.
Ie melee dmg is str
ie  melee dodge is dex
ie  spell dmg is int
ie spell slots is wis
ie hps and saves con

How much you get from each point could vary depending on class. Ie warriors might not get a lot of spell dmg from int and mages might  get less melee dmg for str.

sart

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2014, 03:07:37 PM »
You know that thieves are the best at dodge under the current system too no?  I think it is intentional.. why would a cleric be able to dodge as well as a thief?

That doesn't even make sense.

Joe

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 03:35:01 PM »
Lets just make stats and skills like Elder Scrolls already!

I actually like that system but it would be pretty lame in Arctic.

Alecto

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2014, 08:00:49 PM »
I am sure there will still be +%hit gear in the game, replacing +hr, so hopefully we don't all have to group with druids to get past level 2.  I do have fond memories of 2 tic fights with bats in haven forest tho...good times!

Grimwar

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2014, 07:45:05 PM »
I applaud the general direction toward standardizing the game IAW LUBE but am concerned the proposed change may be a bridge too far where the tail begins to wag the dog:

- Consistency.  We risk sacrificing even fantasy logic - wherein physical stats affect physical skills, and mental stats affect the non-physical.  And in order to address further inconsistencies, will we simply upend all such logic altogether?  For example, will spells also have some chance to hit or dodge based on another spread of stats - and so what then is the real difference between physical and spell attacks?  Surely there must be more reasonable solutions to balance relative stat importance but, at the same time, recognize actual differences between stats vis a vis classes?

- Identity.  We risk losing any semblance to "ArcticMud" - a game based loosely around D&D classes in a Dragonlance setting?  If class (guild) is fundamentally just a set of skills and spells then, for consistency's sake, take this direction to its logical end; a customizable system where players choose their own set of skills and spells, in lieu of any class.  No question it could work but, to many players, such a radical change may risk losing any semblance to the ArcticMud we've known since 1993 (for me).

Grim

P.S. Perhaps our dilemma indicates a higher order problem/solution set.  There may be basic skills common to all, such as Dodge (which physical classes spend much more time perfecting, even combining with attacks), but Parry is an actual learned skill specific to a particular weapon.  I would even suggest that Shield be considered a weapon skill of its own - albeit more defensive oriented.  For another thread...


enochvey

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 08:00:03 PM »
I couldn't even read the rest of the post before responding...


"The mistake hit from dodging has been removed.  This means you won't be losing your charmies from a dodge hit anymore, because the hit won't happen."

How will Grahm cap group mates now?


enochvey

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 08:07:30 PM »
On a more serious note, the change sounds good, but depends on the details as we find them out later.

I've had a gearset for most of the wipe now with a lot of -ac, and it's proven very useful for soloing the various filler mobs I solo most of the time in mid-high zones. however, I've noticed once I start fighting mobs in harder zones the -ac does nothing, so it would be nice to have some of that dmg avoidance back when doing harder content.

I just don't want mobs 5-7 levels below me being able to nibble me to death. A lot of what I've been able to do this wipe has relied on the swarms of smaller mobs not being able to overwhelm me, so I'd like to be able to maintain that type of control over easier content.

Brafu

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Re: Melee Attack Hit Chance -- Next Wipe
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 08:08:59 PM »
He'll still decap people by auto assisting when someone tries to remove tent/hold/para. You can't hold a good grahm down!