Author Topic: Guild Wars 2  (Read 8824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RaVaN

  • Guest
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 09:22:47 AM »
@Giles

  Your whole post there got more ridiculous as you went on and on.

  Firstly you are comparing two completely different games.  Arctic is not GW and GW is not Arctic.  For GW, the only benefit in being good in PvE was unlocking the skills in a PvE enviorment rather than in a PvP enviorment or just buying the unlock kits.  Farming for gold/gear/runes etc etc gave you zero benefit beyond getting to "look" cool or improving your Guildhouse.  PvP weapon you made in 10 seconds hit every bit as hard as the 10+hours it took to farm that fancy max dam chaos axe, IDS, etc etc etc etc.  So what is the point of farming anything in that game if it can all be replicated in the main focus of that game...which was PvP?  (By the way, I think I might be one of the few people who have Pked someone for an item in GW in a PvE instance...still makes me snicker)

  Thus the PvE aspect is trivial, boring, and not fun since there is no reward for spending time at doing it as there are in other games such as Arctic, or Diablo II-III beyond looks. 

  The PvE aspect I always look at as playing solitaire in almost every game.  The AI has a limited set of patterns to throw against you and if you are smart you will recognize these scenarios and overcome them.  This is true for every game including Arctic.  This information can be passed on and learned by others.  The only PvE players with any skills are the ones that figured out on their own how to beat the AI...but there are many many more claiming to have "skill" that just are copy pasting the work of other people. 

  In PvP you always have the human element which is a game changer.  Even if the chessboard is set against your favor, you still have a chance to win in most scenarios by being smarter or sneakier.  In a game like Arctic, a good knowledge of the overall game is very useful.

  This was pretty funny, "Arguning that the other guy only beat you because of gear or levels or because he spent more time on his character is scrub talk.  The other guy was PLAYING TO WIN, while you were just focusing on the parts of the game you enjoy most"...Pretty much NOWclan has won the game in my view in the PvP aspect and the PvE aspect.  There are other clans to have done that as well...but from my Arctic life...they are the ones who have done it with the most flair.

  Anyhow, GW is like Chess, and Arctic is a mirror of real life in alot of aspects.  Both of them stand pretty good in the genre they adhere to but in no way should they be compared to each other whether from a PvE aspect or a PvP aspect.

giles

  • Guest
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 11:21:31 AM »
@Giles

  Your whole post there got more ridiculous as you went on and on.

  Firstly you are comparing two completely different games.  Arctic is not GW and GW is not Arctic.

No I'm not.  When did I ever mention guild wars or arctic in my last post?  We are talking general here.  The MMO scene is largely defined by WoW now, so most of my examples draw from it, but apply to virtually any MMO.  Guild Wars 1 is NOT an MMO, so I'm not sure why you would assume I was talking about it.  It was originally a discussion about the game I'd like to play, which DOES NOT EXIST, and it's morphed into a question about whether the game is the game, or if only endgame pvp is the game.

  The PvE aspect I always look at as playing solitaire in almost every game.  The AI has a limited set of patterns to throw against you and if you are smart you will recognize these scenarios and overcome them.  This is true for every game including Arctic.  This information can be passed on and learned by others.  The only PvE players with any skills are the ones that figured out on their own how to beat the AI...but there are many many more claiming to have "skill" that just are copy pasting the work of other people. 

  In PvP you always have the human element which is a game changer.  Even if the chessboard is set against your favor, you still have a chance to win in most scenarios by being smarter or sneakier.  In a game like Arctic, a good knowledge of the overall game is very useful.

The bold part, I can't figure out why you put that under PvE but you didn't list it under PvP.  If you have EVER told a group member to do anything, or been told to do anything, related to PvP, or learned something from a log, or copied a trick, or anything, you are simply copying the work of others.  PvP isn't some special snowflake where strategies aren't reused.  The same old stuff is used over and over.  Memorizing and copying the work of others is a huge part of PvP.


  This was pretty funny, "Arguning that the other guy only beat you because of gear or levels or because he spent more time on his character is scrub talk.  The other guy was PLAYING TO WIN, while you were just focusing on the parts of the game you enjoy most"...Pretty much NOWclan has won the game in my view in the PvP aspect and the PvE aspect.  There are other clans to have done that as well...but from my Arctic life...they are the ones who have done it with the most flair.

  Anyhow, GW is like Chess, and Arctic is a mirror of real life in alot of aspects.  Both of them stand pretty good in the genre they adhere to but in no way should they be compared to each other whether from a PvE aspect or a PvP aspect.

I've never even heard of NOWclan outside of these forums.  It's impressive that you guys have won in your own mind, but when I was playing arctic a few months back I sure didn't notice any of this "winning".  I'm not doubting you, I'm just showing that being a winner at a game with 50 active players, tops, is not exactly super impressive and a singular anecdote doesn't really prove your argument.

Dyl

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 143
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2012, 12:08:58 PM »

RaVaN

  • Guest
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 01:54:14 PM »
  I have alot of love for Nowclan...though really it is just Stolkholm syndrome.  The game dies a little each time they quit.

corey

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 04:31:30 PM »


I'm going to hit a couple points here (one relating to your prior post).

Chess is a game. One game that, if you will, can be compared to Starcraft. You are given a predetermined set of skills at your disposal and it's up to you to decide how to use them to your advantage. If you choose strategies that have a high risk but big payoff, then that's your decision. It's about the balance of its entirety, not the balance of different stages.

In chess you are given the same pieces, the only advantage is who makes the first move. This is the balance all games should gravitate towards.

No, I do not think attaining gear is in any way a form of skill and all players should be equally skilled/spelled in any game during any form of competition. I've also been of the mindset that players who perform very well in PvP find all other tasks in said game trivial. They understand the underlying mechanics of a game and have a very quick decision-making and reactionary skill set.

Time investment should never in any way ever be compared to skill. If, no matter how much time you invest, you are going to have the same reward as someone who is able to acquire it sooner, you are being held back at an unfair disadvantage.

You must at least realize it is just your opinion.  There are aspects of every MMO I like, and aspects I find boring or dislike.  I'd love to come up with a list of what *I* think proves skill, keeping the elements I enjoy and removing the elements I don't enjoy, but I feel that that would ultimately be just another useless opinion.  Instead, I look at the entire game, and simply treat the entire thing as the game, instead of cutting out parts which I don't like. 

By doing that, I end up concluding that time spent leveling and acquiring gear is indeed part of the game.  You might not enjoy it, you might feel it's unfair to make you do those parts, and you might feel it's unfair that people who do those parts well have an advantage over you, but that is how the games generally work.

You have probably already seen this, but if you haven't-
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

Arguning that the other guy only beat you because of gear or levels or because he spent more time on his character is scrub talk.  The other guy was PLAYING TO WIN, while you were just focusing on the parts of the game you enjoy most.

Quote
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun."

Isn't that exactly what you said about PvE, it's trivial, i.e. boring or not fun?

I do, however, question why you even play games like arctic or MMOs.  If you want a game where everyone starts the same and leveling is non-existent and all pvp is on an even footing, I'd expect you to be playing Counter Strike instead of an RPG with dramatic power differences and a large time commitment in doing the parts you don't think count.

Re: your talk of PvP being much harder or skill based than PvE, I'm not sure how you are measuring.  If you have played any sort of ranked sterilized pvp game consistently, you must realize that eventually everyone reaches something close to a 50% win ratio over time, except the absolute best players in the game.  If you are winning more than that, matchmaking is screwed up or you are smurfing.  If you are winning less, your current rating is higher than it should be.  PvP, for the most part, pretty much magically sets itself at a 50% difficulty over time.

PvE, on the other hand, there are many players that have never even seen or attempted some PvE content.  No matter how many times you wipe at big nasty boss, your PvE rating is never going to go down and put you up against a weaker opponent.  PvE, the difficulty is largely up to you.  You can choose to challenge yourself with a boss or zone you shouldn't be able to beat, and you may or may not succeed.  Or you can choose to do zones or bosses that are well below your skill level, and breeze through them, but most games try to give you incentive to do the harder stuff if you want to progress.

So I disagree that PvP is inherently more difficulty than PvE.  I'd agree it's more fun, but harder?  No.  More skill required?  No.

if one group camps lemish long enough to get legendary then spams armaboro for a days and gets some weapons, they'll likely kill the other group that has a myriad of lim1s and no legendaries.

As it's part of the game, it's a valid strategy.  Why don't you kill the group while they are fighting some rank mob since you seem to know exactly what they are doing?  Or if you think the strategy is unbeatable, try using it yourself.

I'm going to jump straight to the article. To me, anyone who uses "words" like "scrub" is instantly classified as someone of lesser intelligence, no matter what the circumstance. I can't read drivel like this without taking that into account.

That being said, I think you're assuming things about me that aren't in fact true. I've done the grinding, I've been at the top. When I play and get into games, I play them seriously. I don't feel this is fair to others. I would much rather have an even playing field at all times.

I'm sort of like a republican in respect to money, and a democrat in action. I play at the top tiers and feel unfairness towards those who don't have time to "earn" their items and compete with the rest, even though they're well versed in the complexities and underlying mechanics of the game in question.

The 50/50 rule on matchmaking only applies to ELO systems, which is fine. While that fact isn't important, what is important is the gear involved. Let's take WoW for example.

I've played WoW arena at 2500+ ratings before. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the number's significance, but it's damn near the top.

Let's say I take the same players coordinating together on different characters, but the same classes. These characters do not have gear on par with their main characters. Because of this, there is literally no way (in certain situations) to attain the same ladder rating as their previous team. This bothers me because it's an imbalance in the competitive system. You can say "they don't spend time gearing these characters because they're playing their main characters". That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that Joe Shmoe who has a wife and kids and plays with these people on the side can't keep up in gear, even though he has an equal-level game mentality, knowledge, reaction speed, decision-making etc. Joe Shmoe can not ever get as high of a rating based on his gear restrictions that doesn't allow him to compete at a higher level. Skill in the game can take you so far, but in the end, gear matters - a lot.

I measure PvP and PvE skill caps based on personal experience. Again, I'll take WoW since it's the game I have the most experience with. Again, I played with top-tier (PvP) players on Mal'Ganis(the furthest-progressed PvE server). I've seen my peers, along with myself, "catch on" to a PvE fight either during or after one wipe, understanding all the underlying mechanics. Wipes rarely happened a second time. This is due to quick decision-making and reaction speeds. All fights were like this. Everything scripted is easy to understand and react to.

You take the top tier PvE players and bring them to PvP and they can't function - at all. They can't react fast enough, they don't know what to do. Their skill set from PvE is severely limited as they don't fully understand what other classes are capable of. They're used to knowing what's going to come and reacting to it as it happens. In PvP, you don't know what's coming next.

Time and time again I saw people flail, not know how to react, do stupid things to wipe a raid, etc. Not one of them had any sort of arena rating in good standing. There was a point where we would only take people with 2000+ arena rating into pick-up raids, with great success.

I can tell you right now that if you were to take the top 10000 players who were both respectable in PvP and PvE, and asked them to form a pick-up raid to clear brand new, unseen content, offered them 24 players with high arena ratings, 24 players with high "PvE achievements", and the same gear on both, they would take the PvP players in a heartbeat. It's just a very common understanding amongst the players of the game and I'm actually a little surprised I had to explain all that.

corey

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2012, 04:46:13 PM »
@Giles

  Your whole post there got more ridiculous as you went on and on.

  Firstly you are comparing two completely different games.  Arctic is not GW and GW is not Arctic.

No I'm not.  When did I ever mention guild wars or arctic in my last post?  We are talking general here.  The MMO scene is largely defined by WoW now, so most of my examples draw from it, but apply to virtually any MMO.  Guild Wars 1 is NOT an MMO, so I'm not sure why you would assume I was talking about it.  It was originally a discussion about the game I'd like to play, which DOES NOT EXIST, and it's morphed into a question about whether the game is the game, or if only endgame pvp is the game.

  The PvE aspect I always look at as playing solitaire in almost every game.  The AI has a limited set of patterns to throw against you and if you are smart you will recognize these scenarios and overcome them.  This is true for every game including Arctic.  This information can be passed on and learned by others.  The only PvE players with any skills are the ones that figured out on their own how to beat the AI...but there are many many more claiming to have "skill" that just are copy pasting the work of other people. 

  In PvP you always have the human element which is a game changer.  Even if the chessboard is set against your favor, you still have a chance to win in most scenarios by being smarter or sneakier.  In a game like Arctic, a good knowledge of the overall game is very useful.

The bold part, I can't figure out why you put that under PvE but you didn't list it under PvP.  If you have EVER told a group member to do anything, or been told to do anything, related to PvP, or learned something from a log, or copied a trick, or anything, you are simply copying the work of others.  PvP isn't some special snowflake where strategies aren't reused.  The same old stuff is used over and over.  Memorizing and copying the work of others is a huge part of PvP.


  This was pretty funny, "Arguning that the other guy only beat you because of gear or levels or because he spent more time on his character is scrub talk.  The other guy was PLAYING TO WIN, while you were just focusing on the parts of the game you enjoy most"...Pretty much NOWclan has won the game in my view in the PvP aspect and the PvE aspect.  There are other clans to have done that as well...but from my Arctic life...they are the ones who have done it with the most flair.

  Anyhow, GW is like Chess, and Arctic is a mirror of real life in alot of aspects.  Both of them stand pretty good in the genre they adhere to but in no way should they be compared to each other whether from a PvE aspect or a PvP aspect.

I've never even heard of NOWclan outside of these forums.  It's impressive that you guys have won in your own mind, but when I was playing arctic a few months back I sure didn't notice any of this "winning".  I'm not doubting you, I'm just showing that being a winner at a game with 50 active players, tops, is not exactly super impressive and a singular anecdote doesn't really prove your argument.

PvP is not at all about predefined strategies in WoW and I have no idea where you got that from.

For the record, Ravan wasn't a part of NOW. Just to toot my own horn a little, we took things to the extreme and pulled crazy shit repeatedly whether is be fighting larger numbers with a smaller force, amazing planning, laying traps, etc. I can't recall any fight we actually lost on this game unless it was specifically suicide / giving gear away as the game got stale / we quit.

Ochre jump
http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=2798
4v10
http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=2796
Elevator trap
http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=1617
Some old 7v10?11?12?
http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=1552
NOW plan takes huma, starting the fall of Wild two wipes ago
http://arctic.elay.org/index.php?option=viewlog&logid=2772

Probably more, but I'll look later

RaVaN

  • Guest
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2012, 08:24:13 PM »
  Yes, never a part of NOWclan...just a fan.  The Stolkholm Syndrome I mention was me being murthered a few times/mind controlled.  I just have alot of love for "flair".


giles

  • Guest
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 05:28:48 AM »
I'm actually a little surprised I had to explain all that.

You didn't.  All of what you wrote makes sense.  If you equalize everything else, greater PvP skill translates into better players, sure I'll agree with that.

In reality, you can't just equalize everything else.

My general view of high ranked arena players is that they tended to be pretty good at the game, but incredibly unreliable when it came to actually showing up for raids or working on new content.  Overall, some were more of a detriment than an asset.  They had priorities that were not always in line with the raid, and if their healer partner or whatever they needed for their team was only on for one night during the week, they were absent from raiding that night.  This is why you can't just boil the entire game down to PvP skill, there are other required skills. 

Coordination is a skill, and if you can't coordinate with your group you are an inferior player.  I mean, lets say you had the best PvPer you have ever seen on arctic, playing a ranked black mage or something.  You are seconds from attacking an enemy clan when he suddenly recites recall and logs out.  You get destroyed because you didn't have the players you expected to have.  No matter how good at sanitized PvP the guy is, if he isn't reliable for random or unscheduled PvP he is lacking in skill in that area.  That is worse than worthless in a game that includes such, with any consequences attached (arctic, shadowbane, original ultima online).

You take the top tier PvE players and bring them to PvP and they can't function - at all. They can't react fast enough, they don't know what to do. Their skill set from PvE is severely limited as they don't fully understand what other classes are capable of. They're used to knowing what's going to come and reacting to it as it happens. In PvP, you don't know what's coming next.

Do you know *why* this occurs?  You go on about equality of gear and levels, but disregard the most important factor- practice and time spent.  Of course a player is going to fail in arena if they never play it.  There is a "natural" skill factor that limits a players best possible capability, but those players who don't arena at all are nowhere near their potential maximum skill.  They just don't have the time or care to spend the time in arena.  Are you going to suggest that arena should be simplified, maybe remove some abilities so there are fewer buttons to press, to make things equal?  It's really not fair that players who have played 500 arena matches know more about the game than those who have only played 2, right?

Why is it okay to punish players who don't want to spend 500 hours practicing arena, but it's not okay to punish players who don't take the time to obtain the necessary gear?

corey

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2012, 06:53:36 AM »
I'm actually a little surprised I had to explain all that.

You didn't.  All of what you wrote makes sense.  If you equalize everything else, greater PvP skill translates into better players, sure I'll agree with that.

In reality, you can't just equalize everything else.

My general view of high ranked arena players is that they tended to be pretty good at the game, but incredibly unreliable when it came to actually showing up for raids or working on new content.  Overall, some were more of a detriment than an asset.  They had priorities that were not always in line with the raid, and if their healer partner or whatever they needed for their team was only on for one night during the week, they were absent from raiding that night.  This is why you can't just boil the entire game down to PvP skill, there are other required skills. 

Coordination is a skill, and if you can't coordinate with your group you are an inferior player.  I mean, lets say you had the best PvPer you have ever seen on arctic, playing a ranked black mage or something.  You are seconds from attacking an enemy clan when he suddenly recites recall and logs out.  You get destroyed because you didn't have the players you expected to have.  No matter how good at sanitized PvP the guy is, if he isn't reliable for random or unscheduled PvP he is lacking in skill in that area.  That is worse than worthless in a game that includes such, with any consequences attached (arctic, shadowbane, original ultima online).

You take the top tier PvE players and bring them to PvP and they can't function - at all. They can't react fast enough, they don't know what to do. Their skill set from PvE is severely limited as they don't fully understand what other classes are capable of. They're used to knowing what's going to come and reacting to it as it happens. In PvP, you don't know what's coming next.

Do you know *why* this occurs?  You go on about equality of gear and levels, but disregard the most important factor- practice and time spent.  Of course a player is going to fail in arena if they never play it.  There is a "natural" skill factor that limits a players best possible capability, but those players who don't arena at all are nowhere near their potential maximum skill.  They just don't have the time or care to spend the time in arena.  Are you going to suggest that arena should be simplified, maybe remove some abilities so there are fewer buttons to press, to make things equal?  It's really not fair that players who have played 500 arena matches know more about the game than those who have only played 2, right?

Why is it okay to punish players who don't want to spend 500 hours practicing arena, but it's not okay to punish players who don't take the time to obtain the necessary gear?

It's not okay to punish anyone, and that's my point. Everyone in any sort of tournament or competitive setting should be given the same tools to work with.

The one thing I hated is the system for attaining gear for arena. It took far, far too long, and you could tell people didn't want to do it because it was done nearly purely by bots. I still have my pirox life subscription ready to go if I were to ever go back to that, and I can't see myself not using it if nothing's changed.

You take me - I'm going to do the grind because I have to. I did it many times for multiple characters, and I still feel it's bullshit. I want those players who PvE to get their feet wet in the arena. Maybe some of them have potential, but none will ever know with no gear to even compete.