Author Topic: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?  (Read 2201 times)

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corey

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 10:38:18 AM »
What about when:

1) Someone finds your corpse and loots it without returning it?
2) Some thief player steals items from you?
3) Someone rips you off in a trade?
4) Someone incessantly talks smack and otherwise harasses you?
5) Someone purposely breaks a zone to keep you from popping something?
6) Someone helps zone mobs by healing them or what have you to harass you?

1. Instanced zoning!
2. No longer allowed!
3. Trade agreement screens!
4. There are options to ignore people!
5. Instanced zoning!
6. Instanced zoning!

Bryton

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2017, 10:41:11 AM »
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kanu

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 12:23:53 PM »
Representation: Habitual player of 20+ years, former immortal (hero-level), former WILD clan, mostly a scrub but knows more about the game than most casual players

I think there are a small number of items that should be very limited, and a slightly larger collection of items that when you possess them remove your no_pk flag, and a large collection of items that should be no_limit and do not influence you pk flag.

1. People should be able to choose whether they participate in pk or not. One way to choose is to set opt_pk to true, and another is to collect gear that sets opt_pk to true for you. This way no one can collect limited items that everyone else wants and no one can run around trash pkilling people who only have junk.

2. There are no exceptions to the pk rules except as above. If you throw a bunch of limited gear on your newbie, your newbie is fair game. Otherwise, your newbie is safe.

3. Only items that have a limit to how many can exist can be taken in PK. There is no limit to how many of these items that can be scooped in a single pk though. Unlimited items just remain with the corpse (but can be looted by mobs like now, these flags only apply to players). Yes, that may make corpse retrieval more difficult in some instances.

4. If someone is caught breaking the rules, which would happen infrequently, they have all of their characters deleted. The punishment for cheating or breaking the rules should be severe enough so that because of the infrequent number of times people are actually caught, otherwise people won't try to avoid being caught.

5. I think rules should be reviewed periodically based on some evidence or data of their change in player behaviour, which means implementing some transparent way of keeping track of player behaviour (over and beyond the pklog list) seems necessary.

The advantages of #1 is that it allows casual players to have decent gear. This past wipe I learned, for the first time, where some decent limited items loaded, because I played for the whole wipe and relentlessly did some mobs over and over again until I re-popped a decay and its owner for the rest of the wipe did not. Gear should not be so hoarded that it takes 20 years to learn where something loads because it is always gone in the first hours of the wipe and remains thereafter on someone else's character. This discourages casual players from exploring zones because they may have no idea what decent stuff loads there.

It also means that the really good stuff can still set people apart. I don't know exactly what should count as really good gear and what should not, but the list of really good gear should be long enough that almost every non-casual clanned character has a piece, but not so long that casual players are likely to have limited gear as well.

Rhak

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Re: Terms of Endearment: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 08:39:04 PM »
Representation: Out of touch and ornery demographic, Erratic player of 20+ years, sporadic immortal, grouped with tons of people, dealt with a lot of you people in the last fifteen years

I want to get back into the game, no free time has been a huge hinderance for the last couple of years.  I haven't really been involved in pkill at all since having an immortal other than observing, but spent a load of time doing it before that.  Even if I don't participate in it I couldn't imagine the game without it, even at scheduled times.  Aside from the countless ways that unkillable characters could abuse mechanics, it just sounds boring.

If it needs to happen, I'd suggest having an arena or something set up for people to screw around in during the times where it is restricted and just have non arena kills banned through policy (I don't see this being enforceable in any way) or punished in some automatic way (huge loss of exp? loss of rank exp?) so it's not completely restricted, if you need to kill somebody it can still be done, but you'll need a good reason and pay a price for it.  Having an arena at this point could even help in general, as people will be able to actually practice fighting against tougher characters and see there are ways to fight back rather than the panic, lose, quit strategy.

If you limit the number of items to be taken out of a corpse, what happens to the rest? Does the corpse just magically teleport back into the person's inventory? What if they don't log back on? Does the attacker instead get to just stand there looking at a pile of stuff they can't loot for some arbitrary amount of time, or until they manage to frag it, rot it, get a mob to pick it up, etc.? Instead of limiting the number of items to be taken, what if there were ways for the victim to retrieve them somewhat safely? Use that old bloody equipment thing, but instead of having it flag people pkillable, throw in a resurrection spell that can retrieve at least some of the equipment back to the victim while the flag is active.  Could be limited in whatever way, only a certain amount of pieces, pieces with certain limits, flags, etc.  Limit the use of this in some way, time or until lost experience is regained or whatever. Ignoring the probably dozens of ways it (or any looting restriction) could be abused, it might take some of the feeling of hopelessness out of being slaughtered, but any way you limit looting in the end just makes it harder for the underdog than the top guys since it will probably be guaranteed that they will never get that decisive win to turn a war.
 
Punishments and rule thing, dunno people never respond to or listen to any of it anyway. Kill everybody.

If people already have such a hard time with self control to not drive each other away permanently, I can't see limited pkill or looting turning into anything but a nonstop abuse fest followed by the daily mantra of "You should've coded it differently if you didn't want us it use it this way, it's not our fault."

Jorake

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2017, 07:17:53 AM »
When you dt I believe your silver ring goes to your vault right?(I never dt so....)could it be set up to do that. So then even if you don't relog right away you can still get your stuff. But if you don't log within 24 hours you lose it all.

Jorake

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2017, 09:55:52 AM »
I've had a change of heart of sorts. I no longer think pk should be limited at all. Police ourselves so we don't drive people away but the amount of zone tampering that is and will happen by every clan is going to be stupidly bad. X item decays. You see X clan there. So you sneak in and take a key or make it so they can't do it. This is similar to bannon losing eq. I don't know many rise and I don't like most of the ones I do. But Tim is a solid guy from what I can tell. Now he can't even attempt to get his stuff back. And he can't enjoy his shaman finally having an orb. So everyone is saying they just want to zone in peace and have fun with eq. Where is his fun now? If we are making pk illegal make looting other people who haven't given you consent via the consent command illegal too.

Every clan is going to do this. I would do it. And I'll state that openly. If myth lost something and I seen it loading and could prevent someone else from taking it. Yup. Zone botched.

This is a good area of discussion for the arena. Set that up so player a can challenge player b for X item maybe.

Jorake

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 09:58:47 AM »
And I can't even fault Jonas for looting it. Smart move. It just sucks bannon has no way to fight or challenge to attempt to get his eq back.

Kadaj

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 10:01:20 AM »
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:35:52 AM by Kadaj »

Dagda

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2017, 11:55:32 AM »
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.

*applause*

Bryton

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2017, 12:43:41 PM »
The fact that we have to actually have this type of conversation is pretty pathetic. If people would act like normal bapting people we wouldn't have to have these discussions once a month. Policing yourselves is the only way everyone will be happy as that requires the least amount of change. Grow the bapt up and stop acting like god damn neckbeards and realize no one gives a shit what you've done on this text based game that is as old as dirt. No one bapting cares. Just be civil and enjoy the great Dragonlance game we all grew up with. Find a different game like League of Legends, H1Z1, Player Unknown's Battleground, World of Warcraft/Tanks/Airplanes/Submarines or any other Player vs Player game to compete in. Those games have WILLING people to compete against. Right now people just don't want to deal with that type of dumb shit in this game.

TL:DR   Grow the bapt up, enjoy the game for what it is and not what you think it still is.

That kind of attitude is why 3 weeks into a new wipe we only have 28-38 players on... also 12 or more of those are bots. People should be able to act however they want and if you don't like it do something about it besides whining on forums. Your guys whining has caused imms to make horrible changes to this game and that is why people have quit.
 People whine about mages, so imms put in a sheaf and casting level eq  system. Which created more whining.
People whined about people being able to make a trash character to easy, so imms upped xp tables. Now people are whining about how to can't play casually anymore.
People whine about damage output, so hoss lowers all eq stats. People whine even more that they don't do damage.
People whine about eq limits, so imms put in wrist bucklers and other eq unlimited. Then people whine about trash chars getting dams to easy. So imms remove it. Now people are whining for it to come back.
People whine about the game being to easy, so the imms lower groupsize to 8. Now people are whining to change it back.
There's so much more stuff. The funny thing it's probably the same 10 people that whine for something but then realize they don't like the change, and go back to whine on the forums. .

Bring the game back to the way it was, the game that got all of us addicted for such a long time. Before the imms  started listening to all of these idiots, causing them to make awful decisions. The only changes that should be made is ones that bring us back to the original Arctic. No one has played this game the last 10 years only for it to become a text base WoW. bapt a pk arena that shit will never work and it's a horrible idea. I guarentee the same people that want a pk arena will whine and cry after its implemented.

Kadaj

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 12:58:35 PM »
I would like you refrained from grouping with with 'you guys'. I posted this on my own as I am not part of any clan nor have I been for a while. I don't give two shits about clan politics anymore, I don't get targeted by anyone and I don't target anyone. I say this simply because they asked for an opinion and I gave it. I don't really care what you think about the situation either, Bryton. Half the time you complain that the game is too hard and you can't get to legend in a day, the other half you pretend to know what the game was like when it was in its prime. I agree that people should be able to act the way they want to. But all actions have a consequence. Do I agree that the immortals should take action? I think they should stay out of it for as long as possible while the game remains healthy, once people start acting like idiots and driving people away then yes, immortal action should be taken. Again, no one gives a shit what you've accomplished or how badass you think you are on the internet. Stop fooling yourselves.

Patpat

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2017, 02:54:25 PM »
Long time player. I don't really rush or play to compete against other players, if I pop a decent set its usually because other clans aren't active or have quit for the wipe. Currently actively playing and play with a small group of like minded players who avoid pk and are PVE focused only. If we're able to accumulate some eq we like to do/solve endgame content.

1.  Pk happens only in some structured environment that ppl don't have to be a part of if they don't choose to. (be it opt pk off, arena/battleground areas, pktime once a week or w/e are all acceptable). Of the options some sort of battleground area/zone/city seems like the most interesting.
2. see above
3. All eq can be looted if players have opted into pk. If player is not opted into pk they can't be looted or loot a non groupy/clanmember.
4.
5. Wipely review of the rules.



« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 03:01:24 PM by Patpat »

Jorake

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2017, 05:12:01 PM »
I actually like the opt_pk thing. This would work best on a timer of sorts. Like 5 real days. If you turn it off to go agro on someone for whatever reason you cant turn it back on for 5 days.

Gramm

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2017, 07:14:17 PM »
Perhaps its not that pk shouldnt be allowed, its perhaps the immortal intervention policy that needs a tweaking, are there not any laid back immortals with the right mindset to judge whether a clan is being way too agressive and needs a spanking now and then?

I honestly didnt think the mages poofing in to bapt around was a terrible idea, sometimes people need a good smack upside the head, im not saying THAT time was THE right time, i dont know anything about what happened really, between rise and the "godmages" BUTTTT
removing pk entirely takes away from half the people on this game, to cater to the other half.

So why not leave pk in and have fun with it? who cares if rise myth core wild whoever doesnt like it, if imms poof in and stunfest you all to death, its probably because you did something cruel and unusual to another player and thats justified in my personal opinion sometimes

Removing pk and or leaving it, is going to mess with someones day either way, current system is broken if people can still loot a non clansmans corpse, because truth be told that dude looting tims corpse really deserves to get hunted for ripping them off all their hard work in a way that they could never even attempt to ammend the situation for what? dying in a bad spot 1 day after the rules were altered. seriously when goodtim walks from this game you lose a good asset to this playerbase, kudos to kholos whoever that cool person is.

One other thing, if the point of you doing this was to stop people from driving other people from this game, that really backfired watching shady crap that go down and dude getting away with it unmolested for that kinda thievery.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:18:46 PM by Gramm »

xellos

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2017, 08:01:34 PM »
give me my silver girdle gramm or else