Author Topic: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?  (Read 2204 times)

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Terk

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Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« on: July 11, 2017, 10:04:19 AM »
Representation: Played this game a long time in Goda Vos, made a lot of zones, don't really play now, if real life freed up some time I guess I could be compelled to play again.

I had an idea that got some input from Reed, Sean, and a couple of other people on the "Rising Threat" thread. In order to bring this idea to a point of implementation, though, the details need to be worked out. I'm happy to try to arbitrate, but don't want to force anything. It works best with non-anonymous voices representing a group.

Quick Summary:
I think the fact that this game has limited/unique gear is one of the major differences Arctic offers over our graphical mass market competitors (You can argue if a 0.005% load on something unlimited inherently makes it limited, so therefore you don't need a hard cap, but thats really another discussion). I therefore think it is valuable that limited gear exists to be desired and PK exists so you can exorcise those desires from different angles (You don't have to wait until an item decays, or run something 500 times to get it, etc.). The counterpoint, though, is that our PK environment has made the game unpleasant for some of our players and we are not really at a stage in the game's lifecycle where we can assume that people who leave will be replaced. Though challenging to negotiate I think the answer can be setting a formal "Terms of Engagement".

Quote
1. When PK can happen?
--This could be anything from 6 hours a day at set hours, to MWF, to Half day Saturday/Sunday
--Possibly this could be hardcoded by modification of the PK damage automatically.
--It could be made to more or less of a disadvantage to not log in during PK hours

2. Are there exceptions?
--Maybe talking shit in game in non-pk hours is not allowed
--Maybe low level chars can't be killed?
3. Number of limited items allowed to be taken
--This could be all items or just a few with corpse return to defeated party.
4. What are the punishments for breaking the rules
--Immortal intervention of some kind. Pdeletion? Damning? Character stat reduction?
5. How often are rules reviewed?
--Maybe earlier in the wipe the rules are more strict, but later in a wipe they loosen up?

I think we should start with #1, as it is probably the biggest issue. What I'd like to see is a representative for each clan to discuss their perspective, so we can see if there is any middle ground in framing rule #1. I think we'd definitely want a representative from RISE, WILD, CORE, MYTH, Outlaw, RGB, Maza or similar clans with new names. If neutrals want to weigh in to, I think that can be helpful.

Please state who you are representing at the top of your post (sample at the top of mine).

Edit: Judging by the first response, I would encourage responders to just stick to the basics instead of unloading everything about what they think should be done coding wise for PK. The goal here is to see if the community can make terms of engagement that can be augmented by the staff, not to figure out how to fix PK with numerous coding changes, etc. When should PK be allowed? Just to be clear about the goal of this: PK is currently set up in a way that the answer is effectively never, should concessions be made so that the answer is sometimes? It doesn't really look like the answer is going to be always given the current environment. It's probably more helpful to pick a decision somewhere on the spectrum instead of at the extreme ends (never, always).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:01:10 PM by Terk »

kholos

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 01:30:08 PM »
Representation: Habitual player of 15+ years, title setting immortal, reformed trash randomer, formed CORE over 10years ago

The opinions expressed are entirely unique to me. Frequently I have behaved in my perception of what my clan wanted, but this is how I feel about PK and the game.

PK: No time restrictions. However, I do agree that certain restrictions should be met. As I mentioned in another thread, relocate/summon toggle options could reduce the fear of wandering from peace. Another viable option is a NOPK flag in certain rooms/zones to allow for zoning during times of War. If entirely stripped of your playability, you are likely to quit when being targeted for PK. Not allowing the PK of low level chars (20, 25 perhaps?) would be great, especially for the few new players we do get. However, a glaring issue would be the transferrence of tier 1 gear to low level characters.

The punishments for breaking the rules as they stand today are fine, immortal discretion. The general concepts should be 'hard-wired' into the code. The review of the rules should also exist as they do currently, that is when an issue arises. A periodic survey/thread could also be introduced every 3-6 months on the forums.

PK in and of itself isn't the problem. The problems are the issues that stem from it. I want to be able to zone when people want to PK me. I want to not have to relog every week to foom/repop my gear. I want to have Huma's too. I want to not hate the game when I get killed and lose all my stuff.

I believe that a lot of these issues can be fixed, as Adepali suggested, by making gear limitless. Load rates set approriately, would not detract from the competitiveness of the game. It also has potential to balance the scales of power, if you will, as well as increase fairness (a concept us American's love so much) for all of the clans. Myth, for example, may never desire a Dragon Orb because even if they managed to load one, they will be forced to surrender it or die (by RISE, CORE, WILD, BSP, whoever). At the very least, when they lose it someone will be there to repop it. Therefore, the lower clans plateau, or reach a ceiling, with their goals and competition.

I will always support the increase in character malleability or power, and the increase in elite EQ (load rates or otherwise).

EDIT: I also wanted to add, I think a reduction in PK damage is a good idea. It's a fair restriction. Something substantial, but not impossible like 40-60%. This could be an option when creating where you chose your PK damage reduction, which in turn decides your damage dealt. Or a toggled option with a heavy cooldown.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:49:28 PM by kholos »

corey

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 01:55:44 PM »
Representation: Hardcore player of 15+ years, casual player of 5-8 years, reformed trash randomer, have had many "perfect" sets, never been on the losing side of a war, never lost a real set in PvP, NOWclan forever

I used to be the lowest of the low trash randomer. I was a straight asshole. I was what RISE is. I was successful but not to the point they are now.

It's not because they were better than I was, it's because there was better, more coordinated competition on every front.

This game has dropped its playerbase to next to nothing and I don't support PvP at all anymore because it just doesn't fit no matter how much you want it to.

I've been at the top of this game and I just don't enjoy any other aspect anymore other than destroying  zones on low numbers and wearing the best set I can.

I don't have the time to sink anymore into the traps, the coordination etc. I've come to terms that I've aged, the game has aged, and it will never be the same way it used to.

I can tell you right now that I know the logistics of what happens when "the dominant" clan kills you for no reason, and they will. You jump through hoops trying to just play again and, some day, some how, you WILL be killed again.

I can't do that cycle in his day and age and I know a lot of people are the same way.

If I die to something stupid like that where there's no coming back, I'm done.

1. Never
2. Tournaments
3. 0
4. Impossible to happen
5. Late wipe

Attai

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 03:04:00 PM »
Representation: Played hardcore for many years, non-player last couple wipes, just tried coming back again this wipe.

PK should always be allowed however player restraint must be used and this last week should be a wake up call to what could happen if it is not.  If you're the top dog its easy to say I don't give a bapt about everyone else but I've seen it in the past if you used scorched earth tactics you may win the wipe but you're hurting the Mud in the end.

Willoe

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 04:41:49 PM »
Representation: Hardcore player for close to 20years. Major clan/zone leader. Immortal 33.

1. This is such a complicated issue and probably the heart of the matter. The problem being that if we set times when pk can happen, those that don't want to participate will just play during the off times. I think the issue is greater then when people should pk but to what extent and what are the consequences. The fact of the matter is that when you die, you lose everything. When you fall behind in a clan war, it becomes a landslide to where you almost can't play anymore. I'd love to see perhaps an ante system to where each clan focuses on an item or two that if they score the kill they will get those items but not the complete set. This keeps the other clan still fairly geared and allows them to keep competing. I would also like to see that perhaps there is a cool down timer for how often someone can get pkd, this way if someone gets jacked they have some time to play and aren't kept in the inn by the other side. (Perhaps even cooldown timer for clan in general once pk happens).

Hope this helps.

Ilya

blackmagus

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 07:34:10 PM »
Hardcore player since 2002, former member of Knights of Solamnia, Rebels of Taladas, VA and Myth. Actively neutral this wipe.

This game has seen seen it's early glory days come and go and sees the possibility of a new renaissance molded around it's smaller, aging playerbase. The new theme of the MUD; Casuals
Players need the ability to log into the game, make use of the active tutorial quests and helpful players to discover just how much content there is in our game. As they level and progress, they as neutrals will inevitably join clan groups in untagged pick-up spots and eventually join clans themselves. Unending, ceaseless war destroys the ability for small clans to organize or safely vet untagged players out of the threat of retribution by overzealous leading clans. (You know who you are.)

Limiting PK to a structured environment like a zone with spawning preps similar to a battleground is a good way to protect the newer playerbase while allowing old-style players the fun of PK.

1. PK should be limited to set zones at any time of the day.

2. Wars or challenges be done through a formal declaration against PK-flagged clans only. The PK flag should have something like a week cool down so there's no bouncing from an active PvP status to non. The declaring clan should be awarded a piece of gear, or points towards limited gear in a special merchant if their challenge is turned down. If the challenge is accepted, bigger rewards and limited looting applies.

3. One item of the choice of the winning clan for each member of the opposing team. For each caster, two items from  the winning team to represent classes not normally constrained by effectiveness of equipment.

4. Bypassing the rules would be hard, if not impossible as the rest of the game would be NO_HASSLE. If harassment such as zone sitting, zone manipulation, bug exploitation occurs, the consequence should be against the clan leader's main AND the member responsible. First charge, damning of offender. Second, deletion of offender, damning of leader, Third, deletion of same player/offender and the clan leader's main.

5. Wipes are shorter as a result of the smaller playerbase and the unwieldy action of our leading clan. If a new PK system is adopted, it may allow a more balanced wipe and as such the result should be reviewed every six months to one year.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:37:16 PM by blackmagus »

oom

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 11:18:06 PM »
Representation: Hardcore player for near 20 years. Clans - Maza Nostra, Horsemen, Ahma and KOS for about a week each(Thanks for trying to get me in Locke!), RoT for a wipe, Core for half a wipe, MYTH for several wipes, STH for a wipe, RISE for 3 wipes with a MYTH wipe sandwiched in between. Most wipes spent soloing with a DK

What really drew me to this game originally was the fact that if you went afk for more than 10 seconds outside of peace you would probably walk back to a menu screen and no gear. If you were soloing and died in pretty much any zone, if you didn't get back there in under 2 minutes you likely had no gear. Arctic was RUTHLESS back in the day.

The first guy I met on this game was a jerk cleric named Prothal who blinded me and tried to kill me in the solace sewers back when they were west of town and the path was filled with noobs who got charmed by looking at the faeries who were nearby. I ended up standing up in that dude's wedding like 10 years later.

I used to be legit afraid to walk from solace to palanthas back then. I miss that game. Even when my only contribution to the pk log databases was my DK Oom being liberated of Stormbringer by the SoB clan(you might know those jerks as RISE today!), I still thought it was great that PK existed and was a constant threat. Even when I quit for the wipe or couldn't play because of actual obligations I still loved reading logs of BSP fighting the Shriners and there was even one were this guy dropped a chest and some druid picked it up during a duel.

Unfortunately I don't think that game exists anymore. A lot of the problem I think we've been experiencing the last few wipes is that RISE and a handful of others still play 1998 ArcticMUD while basically everyone else is playing 2017 ArcticMUD. I don't know if 2017 ArcticMUD is better, I don't think it is but I'm not everyone. Even after RISE quits it's still basically the same game. There is one clan with all of the elite eq, the other clans don't do any end game content.  With an admittance that this is now 2017 ArcticMud this is how I respond.

1. Set all player damage to 0. Any aggro skill cannot be done on a player, no casting blind or silence, no zaps or bashes, no stealing or casing. Hitting can be done to remove silence or whatever, but hits are all absorbed by armor and deal 0 damage. Players cannot be killed by players. Create an arena that can be used at any time if some people want to fight for fun. When you die you get kicked out of arena healed with all gear. If 2 players want they could ask an imm to referee a fight over an item. Or set circumstances that would allow to challenge for the rights to an item(maybe if you were in the zone when an item was loaded you could force a challenge for it? I don't know about this idea).

Also with the arena I would use my idea from my other post. Once a week the 2 clans gaining the highest CRP for that week pick their best squads and fight for elite pieces of gear(dragon orb, nobash etc). This forces PVP on a meaningful level, even if the hunt/ambush aspect isn't there and also gives clans that might not have known how to load these items in the past a chance to win one through play time and some luck in the arena. Make the items comes up again in a couple of weeks to keep it fresh. Maybe also have some 'side events' at this time. A free for all with the last man standing gaining a rank. A 5v5 free for all with the winning group getting the choice of some non overpowered bonus's. Rank point, elite spell for 48 hours, etc.

2. Bring back bloody equipment in some form? Otherwise no exceptions.

3. None unless mutually agreed to bet has taken place. The reason to PK would be the prize fought over between that weeks top 2 clans.

4. Nothing drastic. 2 days in the abyss or something, maybe even just an hour or two depending on circumstances. No deletions if at all possible.

5. As needed, but at least at the end of each wipe and then again after the first month. Why not try some stuff out. Maybe in a couple of months start a new 'wipe' by purging all equipment but let people keep their characters and test out a new system so we can find something that works for the most people. There would be a massive competition for high end equipment if that's done! We'd get to see how pk or lack of pk works in a competitive environment again.

el conquistador

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 03:29:19 AM »
hardcore noob reporting for duty.  i have played arctic on and off for about 20 years now!  ive been in various small clans over the years, RoT for a wipe, myth for like two months, many others i cant even remember.  mostly i am a neutral.

like most others i loved randoming back in the early days.  i was a huge asshole.  my favorite trick was charming 3 young adventurers and making them bash whoever i saw on the roads.  i once kept reapplying sleep to some poor guy in haven forest for over an hour.  he never quit out!  my favorite memory probably ever in this game was when my brother got pkilled and lost some newbie weapon he loved and me and all our friends got together and hunted the guy down.  then we all went over to my brothers place and he bought us pizza.  good times!

i am different now.  i no longer have any desire to ruin some random guy's day.  what used to be hilarious to me now just seems mean.  and it IS meaner now.  back then there were 200 people playing and 80% of us were complete noobs.  most of us didnt have anything we cared about losing and in fact we expected to lose it.  either to randomers or to dts or by attacking some mob i shouldnt have attacked, total equipment loss was almost a daily event.  it wasnt until my 3rd wipe that i reached level 25!

now everyone has a set of items they like and it took weeks to build.  every character hits level 30 and it takes huge amounts of grinding to get there.  getting pkilled is a big deal now!  especially since its almost never a one-off anymore.  if you are highlighted, and you probably are if you get killed, you are going to lose those items that took you weeks to accumulate over and over again.

earlier this wipe i got pkilled by core.  i wasnt too upset.  i didnt really have anything and i was afk in the street at the time.  so i just made a mental note to be more careful, bought some stuff out of the shop, and carried on.  core attacked me 3 more times the next day.  once as i was spam moving past - they had obvioiusly set triggers for me.  i had somehow gotten myself highlighted.  as what?  i am not sure.  i asked and was ignored.  possibly as an easy target who doesnt fight back?   i dont know.  but i have no interest in trying to fight a clan or in constantly looking over my shoulder.  i rolled a new character and will never play that highlighted one again. 

probably some people will say arctic is not the game for me if i quit whenever i am highlighted, but i disagree.  i love it and still have a lot of fun with it.  the pvp stuff that i have no interest in is really just a tiny part of the game to many of the players.  when i can stay away from that tiny part i still have a great time.

1. id like to see a no_pk option in character creation.  let all the limited items zap me and put a pink aura around my character where i cant be harmed by other players and i will be happy.

adepali

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 03:49:41 AM »
Representation: Maza

Leave PK as is in game port.
Spawn a clone on a different port with no PK outside an arena.
See which one wins.

Jorake

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 06:54:09 AM »
I like this clone idea

I liked all of Ooms ideas

Kafilat

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 10:51:28 AM »
I think Corey nails it but accept that Adepali's suggestion will probably win out in the end, issues of population-splitting aside.  I wish there was an option that is both sensible and realistic that lets us keep the game mechanics as-is but find the prospect unlikely.

Attai

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 11:05:00 AM »
Representation: Maza

Leave PK as is in game port.
Spawn a clone on a different port with no PK outside an arena.
See which one wins.

I can see 2 things happening with this option though
1) PK Game port becomes more like ArcticChaos Mud because bapt you you're not in my clan and you chose to play on the PK port so you're an enemy
2) Non-PK Game port everything is fine until a random group loads onyx shield and some goodie warrior loots and recalls with it and puts it on his lvl 13 mage because he always wanted to be nobash and now you have no way of ever getting it back

The perfect version of this game is 1 game port with PK enabled where people realize the characters they pk are played by real people who have also invested alot of time into this game to get where they were.  I'm all for PK, I enjoy PK and feel it is the best part of this game.

corey

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 11:10:38 AM »
I think Corey nails it but accept that Adepali's suggestion will probably win out in the end, issues of population-splitting aside.  I wish there was an option that is both sensible and realistic that lets us keep the game mechanics as-is but find the prospect unlikely.

I think what you would find is the pk server would die very quickly due to no one playing on it and those people would mostly leave, some move over.

Bryton

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 01:58:22 PM »
@terk while I feel these are good ideas, I just think it's to complicated. I imagine most imms are older in age now and don't have time to babysit the mud and implement all of these things. Also I see way to many ways people can take advantage of this system.
Keep it simple refer to my "The Grind" post.

Bro

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Re: Terms of Engagement: #1 When should PK be allowed?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 10:14:46 AM »
What about when:

1) Someone finds your corpse and loots it without returning it?
2) Some thief player steals items from you?
3) Someone rips you off in a trade?
4) Someone incessantly talks smack and otherwise harasses you?
5) Someone purposely breaks a zone to keep you from popping something?
6) Someone helps zone mobs by healing them or what have you to harass you?